Łukasz Szpakowski - an interview

First of all I'd like to ask you a bit about your early life - where were you born?

I born 1913 near border with Russia…Pinsk…village Miesatycze.
Three brother and three sister.
Seven us altogether.
One, Michael, he been Orthodox minister, he gone to seminary, religious school and he been minister.
He get kill under Warsaw, this uprising.
The smallest brother call Jan, he kill as well in Warsaw.
One sister die when she only baby. I no got memory because I only been child.

What are your earliest memories?

Mostly remember my life when I been in Kiev.
I remember this time when Germany come into our…nearly to our village…father working for Nicholas, for Tsar…afraid if German come kill us.
We like refugee to Ukraine, near Kiev… remember this place, Trukhanov Ostrov …been on river Dnieper, Kiev on left and this Trukhanov on right.

Can you remember much about that time?

Yes…In dream, sometime in dream… like Kiev on hill…we used to often going over there.
Small boat every I think twenty minutes, boat going to Trukhanov Ostrov and Kiev, because near to some villages and people villages going to Kiev for shopping for like that.
I used to love go to over there, to Kiev and mostly I been going with my mother to place call Lavra, where these orthodox monk build this beautiful church…oh beautiful there and some these ministers make them icon…oh…beautiful painting.
We used to going and see them and these two men what build this Lavra, they no been bury, they been under glass, preserve, we used to going time and time see this Lavra and these people.
Beautiful…when we been over there you can...Sunday...you can hear like music...bell ringing...over there been nearly four hundred churches in Kiev....

And then after the First World War you returned home…

When German come they burn everything, destroy everything.
When we come back from Russia, father make hole, like ordinary in garden, put branches on top, on top soil, and we live like that.
Winter.
Until Spring come, very cold, if we burning wood, very smoky and very bad life.
Used to mother said 'Oh, we survive to Spring coming and when Spring coming we start build'.
First thing we build house, ordinary small house, without room, only funny house - like hut.
Anyway when my father gone for help, they… Polish government… said
'You ask Tsar'
(because he been working for)
'Tsar - he give you!'
Which, Tsar disappear…1917 he disappear.
Really bad, bad life.

How old were you then?

In 1917 I been about five year old.

So how long was it before you got the farm rebuilt?

Really we rebuild farm about, 1935, we start have everything our own, and still we have to buy new plough or like that.
Really life difficult.

Tell me about the village.

Very nice, very nice people as well and mostly White Russian.
We used to very friendly…we make ourself everything…no like modern way…old fashioned…we used to make our entertainment…we walk…some singing…lot of we had young people good singer...lot of dancing.
When we build nice house…we used to let in one room…we had big room…used to all village come dancing over there…we enjoy very much.

What sort of musical instruments were there, what did people dance to?

Violin... violin and what do you call…drum...and sometime on this wind instruments as well…we have to pay…collecting...for band…young people…everybody give so much…and pay for and they doing for us.
Mostly I been with orthodox church as well… used to go with young people orthodox church.

What about the surrounding countryside?

Marshland. Lot of marshland.
When Spring come, you only see, tiny, tiny places where village dry.
All water.
Only very, very quick going away, this sunshine, water get way very quick.
Some wood around as well, like forest.
Plenty wolf and wild pig, plenty wild pig as well.
We used to had dog, sometime two dog, keep way this wolf and wild pig.
Because wolf used to attacking horses…we few time lost horse by wolf kill.
Plenty foxes as well.
Mostly when spring come beautiful…like music them…frog...frog…plenty, like music in marshes…because very near…oh...like music...absolutely all all all time like make noise…beautiful!…beautiful.
And plenty bird, we had plenty different bird, because marshes, bird lot of doing with, plenty duck, duck and like that and... very nice when Spring come and…

What languages did you speak?

We mostly White Russian...and after this Polish prohibited…we only Polish language use.

What did you speak in the house?

White Russian.
Everybody White Russian.

What were your mother and father's first languages?

White Russian, Russian.
Mother especial very good Russian speak, good grammar, better than my father.
Our churches as well prohibited pray or something in Russian, I think 1928.
1928 they prohibited, can't even churches, speak Russian.

And your first language?

White Russian.

And in the village school?

White Russian.

And in the village most people would speak?

White Russian.

What other languages were spoken in the village?

Russian or White Russian.
Some rebellion been even when speak to policeman or something, White Russian speak, no speak in Polish.

How did the build up to the Second World War affect you -when the Russians came did you have any warning?

When Hitler come to power, we know that he will one day attack Poland.
We been thinking, everybody in White Russia been thinking… 'Oh survival coming, help' because Russian nearest to neighbours.
Nothing happen like that.
One day, one morning before sunrise, Russian come and take me away, and take my family to...they straightaway take me like enemy, the Russians.

What happened to your family?

They deported to Kazakhstan…and they live all time Kazakhstan and mother and father somewhere in forest, somewhere in forest been working.
Bad life been for them as well.
I know I been concentration camp only I am young, for mother and father been very bad.
Father die.

And when Hitler turned on Stalin there was an amnesty? They said stay or fight.

Yes. When I come from concentration camp straightaway they call me… Russian official and said 'We give you job.'
I said I no want job…I go to fight…if I get killed I get killed.
I no want stop one minute.
And we cross Caspian sea to Iran.
From there we come to Iraq and from Iraq to Jordan and from Jordan to Palestine, we been over there about six months, training in Gaza.
After they decide bring us to Italy.

And did you see a lot of action there?

Heavy fighting.
One place where we very bad fight near Ancona and my Captain, he said to his sub commander
'Send this Bolshevik to front!'
because have to human go in front of tank, no light, can't use light because if German see they bomb.
They sent me front of tank.
Captain said
'Take this Bolshevik!'
And when we later come to near Ancona and German shoot his tank, been burning and I save him from this burning tank…I carry him about least three or four hundred yards and he call me Bolshevik and I save his life!

So when the war finished you came to England?

Yes. First I stop near Barnsley, camp been, near Barnsley, and I work on this pressure you know like tractor and bashing stone.
Anyway I been over there few months, English boy said
'How much they pay you?'
I tell them.
He said
'They should pay you extra money for this job because this bad job, extra money'
'Oh' I said
'they no give me'
Anyway when they tell me like that I said to this translator from Polish to English
'I no want they cheat me, I no want anymore work I want to go to somewhere different job'
They straightaway put me thirty shilling, those day thirty shilling lot of money.
He said
'You stop'
because I am good worker, honest worker.
'You stop we give you money '
I say
'No - you cheat me first thing I no want nothing to do with you'
I go to Sheffield with another few boys, we come and that how I get this job steel mill, heavy rolling mill.

How did the English treat you?

I never had name.
They call me 'Polish'.
They call me 'Hey!'
They call me any name like that.
No very friendly.
Least fifteen years, I been like that and after, when they found I honest person and I work what I 'm supposed to do they start more friendly, only first no been friendly that all.
Used to break heart, how they treat.

Could we just go back and talk a bit more about the time when you were arrested by Stalin's NKVD?

When they come to...one morning...still dark…come morning and said 'Łukasz Szpakowski...zdyes zhivyot?'
and my mother said 'Yes, here.'
He said, this NKVD, 'Sobiraes!' - Get ready! - 'You enemy...enemy the people.'
Take us to Pinsk.
In Pinsk we been in prison and after…we cattle train...you know...transported cattle…they take me to Minsk... and I been in Minsk about week or two prison.
From over there about fifteen miles from Minsk they take place where used to monk live and been over there least two, three months.
From there they put us to for train we come to near Vyatka…North. From Vyatka they come take us by boat.
We been thinking we finish now, they drown us or something.
Anyway we travel least two week.
Used to give us salty fish and piece of bread over there in this boat…and when we want water, ask for water they take bucket from river and water we drink.
We been thinking oh...we had it now and from this place they said 'Ready we going' and we go least two hundred kilometre walk…snow.

And we come to place nothing nothing in until make ourself like hut and we been in this live in huts and work.
Twelve hours day work…night and day…one week night, one week like day.
All…nearly all...no much light…because over there right north…you can see only this…blue...blue and white light like that.
And I spend over there nearly two years.
In my camp been about least seven hundred… when we finish maybe left three hundred and fifty.
Fifty per cent perish...they never bury or anything…when people die, put in snow.
I bet now looking for this body and plenty find now, body what been die over there from exhaustion and without food, frozen...

And the people you were with?

Mostly Estonian...Latvian...Polish...Lithuanian…
Nice people...they suffer lot.
If young people maybe survive…older people no survive that all because very hard...no food and frost.

And did they go through the formalities of a trial?

Oh Yes! Minsk. What trial!
They call me name, I gone over there and they say 'Twenty years you labour camp, been enemy the people'
(laughing)
Enemy the people!
That all.

Łukasz Szpakowski (Miesatycze 1913 - Sheffield 2004)

An Enemy of the People
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